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This episode was recorded on July 20th, 2025 at the Culture Center Theater in Charleston, WV. The lineup includes Rhonda Vincent, Neal Francis, Otis Gibbs, Cathy Fink, Marcy Marxer, Chao Tian: From China to Appalachia, and Dawn Landes. https://bit.ly/4nPfG8d

This is the story of a three-year-old girl and the highest court in the land. The Supreme Court case Adoptive Couple v. Baby Girl is a legal battle that has entangled a biological father, a heart-broken couple, and the tragic history of Native American children taken from their families. We originally released this story back in 2013, when that girl’s fate was still in the balance of various legal decisions. We thought now was a good time to bring the story back, because the Act at the center of the story is still being questioned.When then-producer Tim Howard first read about this case, it struck him as a sad but seemingly straightforward custody dispute. But, as he started talking to lawyers and historians and the families involved in the case, it became clear that it was much more than that. Because Adoptive Couple v. Baby Girl challenges parts of the 1978 Indian Child Welfare Act, this case puts one little girl at the center of a storm of legal intricacies, Native American tribal culture, and heart-wrenching personal stakes.LATERAL CUTS:What Up Holmes?The GatekeeperEPISODE CREDITS:Reported by – Tim HowardProduced by – Tim HowardEPISODE CITATIONS (so many):Background and Reporting from a range of different perspectives"Couple forced to give up daughter"An introductory article by Allyson Bird, for the Charleston, SC Post and Courier"Supreme Court Takes on Indian Child Welfare Act in Baby Veronica Case" A report for Indian Country Today by Suzette Brewer, who has also written a two-part series on the case."Supreme Court hears Indian child custody case"Tulsa World article by Michael Overall which includes Dusten Brown's account of his break-up with Veronica's mother, and his understanding about his custodial rights. Plus photos of Dusten, Veronica, and Dusten's wife Robin in their Oklahoma home_._Randi Kaye's report for CNN on the background of the case, and interviews with Melanie and Matt Capobianco: "Video: Adoption custody battle for Veronica"Nina Totenberg’s report for NPR: "Adoption Case Brings Rare Family Law Dispute To High Court"Reporting by NPR's Laura Sullivan and Amy Walters on current ICWA violations in South Dakota.Dr. Phil's coverage: "Adoption Controversy: Battle over Baby Veronica"Analysis and EditorialsOp-ed by Veronica's birth mom, Christy Maldonado, in the Washington Post: "Baby Veronica belongs with her adoptive parents"Colorlines report "The Cherokee Nation’s Baby Girl Goes on Trial:"Americans remain dangerously uninformed about the basics of tribal sovereignty, and what it means for the relationship between the United States and Native tribes and nations.The Weekly Standard's Ethan Epstein argues that ICWA is "being used to tear [families] apart]: "Mistreating Native American Children"Andrew Cohen considers the trickier legal aspects of the case for the Atlantic in "Indian Affairs, Adoption, and Race: The Baby Veronica Case Comes to Washington:"A little girl is at the heart of a big case at the Supreme Court next week, a racially-tinged fight over Native American rights and state custody laws.Marcia Zug's breakdown of the case (Marica Zug is an associate professor of law at the University of South Carolina School of Law who she specializes in family and American Indian law) "Doing What’s Best for the Tribe" for Slate:Two-year-old “Baby Veronica” was ripped from the only home she’s known. The court made the right decision.Marcia Zug for the Michigan Law Review: "Adoptive Couple v. Baby Girl: Two-and-a-Half WAys To Destroy Indian Law"From Walter Olson, a senior fellow at the Cato Institute’s Center for Constitutional Studies: "The Constitutional Flaws of the Indian Child Welfare Act"Rapid City Journal columnist David Rooks poses a set of tough questions about ICWA: "ROOKS: Questions unasked, unanswered"Editorial coverage from The New York Times:"A Wrenching Adoption Case""Adoptive Parents vs. Tribal Rights"Contemporary, Historic, and Legal Source MaterialsAdoptive Couple v. Baby Girl on the SCOTUS (Supreme Court of the United States) BlogAudio from the oral arguments in the Supreme CourtOfficial website for ICWA (the federal Indian Child Welfare Act)1974 Hearings Before the Subcommittee on Indian Affairs "on problems that American Indian families face in raising their children and how these problems are affected by federal action or inaction." PDFThe National Indian Child Welfare AssociationThe First Nations Repatriation Institute, which works with and does advocacy for adopteesSignup for our newsletter!! It includes short essays, recommendations, and details about other ways to interact with the show. Sign up (https://radiolab.org/newsletter)!Radiolab is supported by listeners like you. Support Radiolab by becoming a member of The Lab (https://members.radiolab.org/) today.Follow our show on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook @radiolab, and share your thoughts with us by emailing radiolab@wnyc.org.Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Simons Foundation and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

Hosts Jim DeRogatis and Greg Kot speak with David Browne, author of the book Talkin’ Greenwich Village: The Heady Rise and Slow Fall of America’s Bohemian Music Capital.Join our Facebook Group: https://bit.ly/3sivr9TBecome a member on Patreon: https://bit.ly/3slWZvcSign up for our newsletter: https://bit.ly/3eEvRnGMake a donation via PayPal: https://bit.ly/3dmt9lUSend us a Voice Memo: Desktop: bit.ly/2RyD5Ah  Mobile: sayhi.chat/soundops Featured Songs:Phil Ochs, "Here's to the State of Mississippi," I Ain't Marching Anymore, Elektra, 1965The Beatles, "With A Little Help From My Friends," Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band, Parlophone, 1967Sonny Rollins, "Softly As In A Morning Sunrise (Live At The Village Vanguard, 1957 / Evening Take)," The Complete Night At The Village Vanguard, Blue Note, 2013Miles Davis, "Stablemates," Miles: The New Miles Davis Quintet, Prestige, 1956Joan Baez, "Wildwood Flower," Joan Baez, Vanguard, 1960John Coltrane, "Greensleeves," Evenings at the Village Gate: John Coltrane with Eric Dolphy, Impulse!, 2023Paul Butterfield, "Everything Gonna Be Alright," Live New York 1970, RockBeat, 2015Phil Ochs, "Talking Vietnam Blues," All the News That's Fit to Sing, Elektra, 1964Dave Van Ronk, "He Was a Friend of Mine," Folksinger, Prestige, 1962Dave Van Ronk, "Dink's Song," Dave Van Ronk Sings, Folkways, 1961Bob Dylan, "House of the Risin' Sun," Bob Dylan, Columbia, 1962Dave Van Ronk, "House of the Rising Sun," Just Dave Van Ronk, Mercury, 1964The Blues Project, "Catch the Wind," Live at the Cafe Au Go Go, Verve Folkways, 1966Bob Dylan, "It Ain't Me Babe," Another Side of Bob Dylan, Columbia, 1964Bob Dylan, "Hurricane (Live at Memorial Auditorium, Worcester, MA, November 1975)," The Rolling Thunder Revue: The 1975 Live Recordings, Columbia, 2019Len Chandler, "Bellevue," To Be a Man, Columbia, 1966Peter, Paul and Mary, "Where Have All the Flowers Gone," Peter, Paul and Mary, Warner Bros., 1962Sonny Rollins, "I Can't Get Started (Live At The Village Vanguard, 1957 / Evening Take)," The Complete Night At The Village Vanguard, Blue Note, 2013The Roches, "Speak," Speak, MCA, 1989Buffy Sainte-Marie, "It's My Way," It's My Way!, Vanguard, 1964Odetta, "I Never Will Marry," Odetta Sings Folk Songs, RCA Victor, 1963Afrika Bambaataa & the Soulsonic Force, "Planet Rock," Planet Rock (Single), Tommy Boy, 1982See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Saturn and Venus bracket the pre-dawn sky now. As Saturn drops from view in the west, Venus nudges into view in the east. Saturn looks like a bright star, while Venus is the brilliant morning star. The planets are both sliding eastward against the background of distant stars. Saturn lined up opposite the Sun a couple of weeks ago. For a few months around that point, the planet looks like it’s “backing up” against the background of stars – a result of the relative motions of Saturn and Earth. Earth is closer to the Sun than Saturn is, so our planet moves faster. It overtakes Saturn every 13 months, making Saturn appear to shift into reverse. It’s actually still moving in its usual direction – only our viewing angle is changing. It’s like passing another car on the highway. For a while, the other vehicle looks like it’s moving backward against the background of buildings and trees. When you move far enough past it, though, it appears to resume its normal forward motion. Saturn will end its backward motion and shift back into forward at the end of November. Venus, on the other hand, is about to pass behind the Sun as seen from Earth, so it’s dropping closer to the Sun every day. That’s also a result of the orbital motions of the two planets. Venus will disappear in the twilight in December, and cross behind the Sun in January – depriving us of the “morning star.” More about Saturn tomorrow. Script by Damond Benningfield

This week we travel back four decades to 1984, a musically rich year that brought us some great Latin Rock, Pop, Salsa, Brazilian music and more! Featured artists include Los Lobos, Gilberto Gil, Soda Stereo, Sheila E, Bobby Rodriguez, Los Angeles Azules, Joe Arroyo, Silvio Rodriguez, Steve Hackett and more.

Stories of people who try simple mind games on others, and then find themselves way in over their heads. Visit thisamericanlife.org/lifepartners to sign up for our premium subscription.Prologue: Host Ira Glass interviews Lori Gottlieb about the time she sent a letter to a writer in a magazine, a letter packed with white lies. (5 minutes)Act One: Lori Gottlieb's story continues. One complication led to another, and before long, the writer seemed to be lying to her. Or maybe he wasn't. It was hard to tell. Years later, she still isn't sure what happened. (8 minutes)Act Two: A group called Improv Everywhere decides that an unknown band, Ghosts of Pasha, playing their first ever tour in New York, ought to think they're a smash hit. So they study the band's music and then crowd the performance, pretending to be hard-core fans. Improv Everywhere just wants to make the band happy—to give them the best day of their lives. But the band doesn't see it that way. Nor does another subject of one of Improv Everywhere's "missions." (31 minutes)Act Three: Scott Carrier and his family live in the same Salt Lake City neighborhood as Elizabeth Smart, the fourteen-year-old whose 2002 kidnapping made international news. Though Smart's picture was plastered everywhere throughout Salt Lake City and thousands of volunteers searched for her, her captors brazenly brought her back to the very neighborhood from which she'd been taken. They walked freely through the streets with her in broad daylight, yet no one recognized her. Scott talks with his neighbors and his son Milo—who had attended grade school with Smart—about what was going through their minds that prevented them from seeing what was right there in plain sight. (12 minutes)Transcripts are available at thisamericanlife.orgThis American Life privacy policy.Learn more about sponsor message choices.